Raider/Berserker Threat to balance?

[gnomeofdoom]

So as I'm sure most of you are aware, the new line of blasters from both Nerf and Buzzbee: the raider, the Berserker, and a few others are causing some commotion.

The Raider is a shotgun-action single firing clip fed blaster with a 35 dart drum that 'promises' reduced jamming with its horizontal feed rather than vertical feed. Additionally that drum can be transferred to any blaster that also has the clip feed system. With its 35 dart capacity, and the ability to jam dart clips into it, you have a massive store of ammo at your disposal and wont have to stop to reload for ages. With the trigger option allowing for the gun to fire as fast as you can move the shot-gun action priming mechanism the speed at which you can fire off shots rivals some of the top blaster speeds to date.

The Buzzbee Berserker comes with a central space reminiscent of the Buzzbee Big Blast along with an outer rim of 20 darts on a rotating, self advancing barrel system. The Big Blast has been notorious for its modification into dart tag sniper rifles capable of firing tremendous distances. The downside of this in HVZ terms of course is the massive reload time for the single shot you get to discharge. That weakness is now canceled without the aid of an additional side arm by having the 20 shot barrel in the same weapon.

These weapons are great for nerf wars for sure, but are they too overpowered for fair and balanced HvZ games? I will state my opinion below in another post to keep this initial post relatively uncluttered for future thread-readers. Please limit responses to thoughtful debate on the issue rather than 'yeah, but the blaster is so cool and powerful' or 'no, people that need that kind of firepower are noobs lololol'

Thanks for your time :]

[gnomeofdoom]

It is hard to pin down a solid argument on this topic because of a variety of factors. First, are the weapons too powerful, do they tip the scales toward the humans and will they be 'abused' because of this fact. secondly how should players who are new to the game be accommodated if they made the purchase of their 'one big gun' for the game only to find out they couldn't use it. Conversely, how would a new player feel if they bought a pair of mavericks and are at a disadvantage to the other humans who sprung for the Raider/Berserker?

My first point: I DO believe that these weapons are overpowered and tip the scales to the humans too much. I know the issue might be countered by increasing the number of shots a zombie might need to take to be stunned, or reducing the zombie stun time to give them more opportunities to out maneuver such deadly weapons. I believe however that this is a case of treating symptoms but not the disease. I would at the very least limit the use of the Raider or Berserker to only a few players (to be determined in some way that would be deemed 'fair'), and ideally I would make the weapons either banned or weapon unlock reward for missions.

My second point: Some players might run out to buy a weapon for the sole purpose of HvZ. They'll see a nice big flashy blaster and go for it. These people might come to find out that their weapon is banned or can't be used until later in the game and be upset/disillusioned with the game and how it's run. In this situation I would be sure to make the rules blatantly clear about weapons regulations. If your school does weapons unlocks make sure people know well enough in advance what weapons count as what categories during the game. A friend of mine is developing a weapons guide for our HvZ Games and may post it online at NerfHaven or other places as well.

My second point part B: The player that grabs up a couple of mavericks is at a distinct disadvantage to the player with a Raider/Berserker. Granted mavericks are beautiful weapons, they can have problems with jamming (often when the user is over-zealous with that trigger squeezing), they've got 6 shots before a fairly slow reload is necessary. Even with a roulette mod making reload times quicker. Chances are that this player wont live as long just because of fire power. Perhaps there are some of you out there who believe this is the case, but I'd rather see skill, bonding, and friendship be the core components of HvZ. I didn't include 'entertainment' or 'fun' in that list just then because to some people having the biggest and best is entertaining and fun, and I shouldn't discredit them.

All in all I do not like the raider or berserker for HvZ play as I feel that it unbalances the game too much and causes issues with players. I think they'll be amazing blasters worthy of use in nerf wars, or as perhaps bonuses during HvZ missions if used wisely. Ultimately though, I'd leave them out of games if it were up to me.

[Thesreyn]

In a lecture, this is reserved for a little while later when I have time to discuss this

Ok, I own a Raider. I bought it just two weeks ago and I love it to pieces. However, let's break it down a little.

It's true, the raider with its side loading system jams far less than other nerf blasters. This is an awesome thing. A gun is not SUPPOSED to jam at all, let alone regularly. Plus the weight of the 35 shot drum magazine isn't counterweighted on the blaster, so what you end up with is a side heavy gun that also completely ruins your field of vision if you try to ironsight aim. What this means is that shooting from the hip is one of the very few ways to fire this weapon (assuming you have the 35 round magazine in it).

The gun is very light, though the magazine adds a fair bit of weight. This lightness is quite attractive as it makes it easy to move around and doesn't fatigue you nearly as much. It is also one of the few two handed weapons that can easily be held and fired with a single hand, assuming you can prime it. However, this lightness and the resulting small size of the blaster is also a disadvantage, as it lacks the space within its confines for a powerful firing mechanism. When you fire the blaster, you can feel the spring shoot and it's really not as powerful as you might think, giving it a shorter range than a lot of blasters on the market.

It also has drawbacks in terms of accuracy. First, it has poor accuracy to begin with, meaning that (combined with its already relatively short range) its effective range is pretty bad. We're talking shotgun bad. Second, because of the weighting of the gun, it takes a LOT of practice to slam-fire this weapon effectively, otherwise you end up with the weight dragging one side of the gun down, causing it to (generally) shift the barrel to the right.

Now normally I would argue that "realistically" a recon or longshot is a more likely weapon to be seen on the field of battle in HvZ. The six round clips are more reminiscent of a rifle. However, you get one magazine with the recon and two with the longshot. If you can find the extra magazine packs that nerf sells (They are HARD to find in Australia) that solves half the problem. The other half is the value. Sure, the recon is cheaper than the raider but it comes with just over 1/6 of the darts (unless you get one of the Target Bonus Dart recons, apparently available during their big toy sale). The raider not only comes with 35 darts, but also a magazine that you don't have to reload for ages! For the beginning nerfer, this is highly attractive, because they don't have the practice shooting these things that other players do.

So, for beginners, the gun is very well balanced, I think. It's difficult to manage but is balanced out by its high ammo capacity and rate of fire. In the hands of a skilled nerfer, it's a lot more deadly but still requires learning how to compensate for its downfalls and having to deal with its poor range.

Also, let's not forget that humans need to have some surprises up their sleeves now and then. Skilled zombies will know by now the best ways to approach someone using a particular weapon. The introduction of new weapons that can really mix things up is -good-. Personally, I think it's a little too easy for single zombies to tag humans. I'm not referring to ambushes and the like, but on the open field. Most players aren't going to be great shots or incredibly disciplined, so taking your time and getting them to waste their shots is a perfectly viable strategy as a zombie, which works great against new players. The larger magazine balances that and will force old, skilled zombies to regard new players with more caution than previously awarded. The argument that a skilled player with the raider going up against a skilled zombie is moot, because a skilled zombie is going to avoid a skilled player in a solo fight.

I can see where you're coming from. The raider at least is quite a useful blaster, although I prefer to stick the clip in a recon and go from there. Banning the gun is something that I don't think should happen. Humans have to adapt to increasing numbers of zombies, why shouldn't zombies have to adapt to larger weapon magazines? If it really is a problem for the zombies, then what they need to do is work more on stealthy kills instead of simply charging the line.

As mentioned, I think people might have been worried about the vulcan when it came in but it has its drawbacks, just like the raider (and berserker probably will too), meaning that it's quite well balanced. Noone complains about Buzz Bee's belt blaster either which is a 30 shot belt fed blaster similar to the raider in terms of priming but having far greater range and accuracy. The downside is that it's quite bulky (though not too heavy) and the belt is incredibly noisy, so it goes right out the window when stealth is required.

All in all, I think the raider will provide a breath of fresh air for zombies and humans alike. New blasters will always jumble the game around a bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing! And let's not forget that raiders aren't cheap, so they're not going to be hugely prolific, at least not for quite a while, by which time there'll be some other blaster to worry about

If you really want to know about weapons that need balancing, it's Melee weapons. Man those things are op.

[jacob19]

First of all the guns look like a beautiful beast of a weapon.

Based on your description, the guns sound majorly overpowered and quite ridiculous for HvZ. A gun that doesn't jam can easily stun an entire horde of Zombies in the hands of a qualified Human. Banning it is a simple short term solution. That being said, HvZ is not a short term kind of game. In the long run i believe that players will argue about it's banned status, and like you said become disappointed when they find out their shinny new gun is banned.

Seeing this, I think it's best that players should be able to use it. The way I see it, the Horde functions much like a virus. Over time a virus will develop an immunity to an antidote and the treatment will eventually become useless. I believe that future Zombies will be able to counter the new guns and will render the Berserker and Raider "above average" guns rather than "unfairly good".
Most games are played with 100-150 players. The OZ has the element of surprise most of the time and is able to convert Humans very quickly. After that, the Horde's numbers multiply exponentially. Even with a 1:1 Zombie to Human ratio, I don't think any gun can stand up to the Horde for very long. Even if they can, Zombies are stunned, for a short amount of time. Humans will eventually have to run out of ammo.
I would imagine the same kind of speculation came with the Vulcan and Tommy gun. Both are fully automatic weapons and hold nearly 30 bullets.

If anything, these guns should be encouraged. Every HvZ story I've heard, the Zombies have won. These guns will prove to be a challenge for the Horde but in the long run I think it will only prolong the Inevitable Human defeat.
So in short I say don't ban them but of course if in your game the present a problem, by all means ban them.

[gnomeofdoom]

Thanks for you info Thesreyn, for some reason I've been a 'natural skeptic' for most of my life and often need things to be proven to me, or well argued anyway. You've brought up some valuable points, and there are only a few 'nit-picky' things that I have as counters.

The only indoor spaces on our campus that are not considered safe zones are the hallways of our residence buildings. These however require key card access to get into (or the trick of following someone with a keycard/getting a friend to let you in) Because of this it is difficult to get very many 'sneaky' kills on our game's current scale (we limit to club members on campus while we're working kinks out, about 40 people) and more often than not the confrontations arise between buildings.

Then there's modding, several of our players are nerf aficionados who quite enjoy the art of modding nerf guns (sometimes creating beasts such as the long shot with a dart tag gun mounted underneath) You didn't really do anything to support the berserker and I am still firm in my belief that if one of these players modded the 'big blast' portion of it into the sniper rifle style weapon (with and incredible effective and actual range) they would have an effective pump weapon that is supplemented by the 20 shot single prime barrel around the sniper barrel.

I think to really hold a good case 'for' the inclusion of these weapons I would really like to see weapons demonstration in a live-setting rather than the videos I've seen of the weapons firing. Your points have planted enough doubt in my mind that I'd probably give the weapon the benefit of the doubt at first, but would remain wary and skeptical.

If anything, these guns should be encouraged. Every HvZ story I've heard, the Zombies have won. These guns will prove to be a challenge for the Horde but in the long run I think it will only prolong the Inevitable Human defeat.
So in short I say don't ban them but of course if in your game the present a problem, by all means ban them.

not trying to derail the argument, and the outcome might be different when our games move onto a larger stage, but our last game had 2 humans survive the week. One of whom was using a longshot with devastating efficiency (specifically, not a single Jam) a 35 round drum in his weapon would virtually secure the outcome in our 40 man game. We'll see, I guess, what happens in larger games when the zombies gather in large enough groups that the shots can't come fast enough to stop a running horde.

[Thesreyn]

That's fair, I wasn't considering the size of the game, or to be more accurate, I was considering the size of game we'll be playing here at ANU

For a game with only 40 players, I don't think raiders or berserkers are necessary. You don't want to impose restrictions on players but if all of them have around 12-50 shots each that does make it unfair on the zombies in small games.

[Mephiston-IA]

i believe that for a while these guns might tip the balance in favor of the humans, but it means the zombies will just have to learn and adapt.

after all, humans do adapt to changing weapons in war all the time IRL, if the zombies never have to worry about anything new then the game would get kind of boring from the zombie perspective if you were to ask me.

[ShadowZero]

I agree with Thesreyn and Mephiston. While the sheer size of the magazines can seem daunting for a zombie, not everyone is a crack shot with a Nerf gun. There is always wind direction that can throw off shots, and the zombie(s) might even luck out and get a human who has one of the "wonder weapons" and it jammed. If there is a central theme to the game, it is that nothing is for certain. The game is already weighted in favor of the zombies, and humans can win, but it will take effort, determination, cooperation, and a good dose of luck. The new weapons and their extended magazines somewhat tip the scales back towards the humans, but by no means do they spell (pardon the pun) automatic victory.

Just having an extended magazine is a morale booster for humans. But it also comes with a steep reload time: unless they can get to safety to reload, have a backup weapon, or got a second Raider/Buzzbee just for another extended magazine, then it is not insurmountable for a determined pack of zombies. And like Thesreyn mentioned, the magazine does weigh the weapon down quite a bit, so there is that to take into account. If I had it, I would attach the drum magazine to my Longshot, a weapon with a bolt action. That in itself would be a balancing factor because no matter how many rounds I have, I can only fire every time I work the bolt.

I would like to get my hands on it to see if it really is a decent weapon. If it is, I might get one for my next game (and just to have a drum magazine weapon). If it is not, then I will take the drum magazine and equip it to my Starship Troopers Gun (my long nickname for my Longshot). Any weapon takes practice to master and even more to compensate for its shortcomings, and not all humans are willing to go to a Nerf firing range to practice on a gun. Just like humans have to learn to use new weapons effectively, zombies have to learn new tactics to adapt to said weapons. Far from breaking the game, I feel the same as Thesreyn and Mephiston that these weapons could spice things up a bit for both sides.

[Cmdrmack]

A blaster can only point in one direction at a time, with very few exceptions. Two zombies should be able to tag a lone human no matter what his equipment is.

[gnomeofdoom]

A blaster can only point in one direction at a time, with very few exceptions. Two zombies should be able to tag a lone human no matter what his equipment is.

I disagree, I have personally witnessed a man take out 5 zombies before a 6th finally got him while he was distracted, with only a marshmallow gun (which fires under more or less the same mechanism as the raider) and a sock.

Another method would be to rush in one direction firing at that zombie, while maintaining the buffer to the other zombie and the firing on him/her once the first is down.

2 zombies are not enough for a player aware of his surroundings and adequately armed. Close quarters, such as a hallway, might be a different story

[ShadowZero]

gnomeofdoom is right. Humans typically have an advantage out in the open. In close quarters, that advantage of distance is easily negated by stealth or sheer numbers of zombies. Unless the human has backup, is wielding a reliable Vulcan, or is unusually vigilant, then they can easily be taken out in enclosed areas. Even open spaces give no guarantee of safety: in my first game, a cohort and I were almost done in by two stealthy zombies, but she spotted them at the last second and took one out; the other retreated.

I was armed with two pairs of socks then and she with a Maverick. No matter what our equipment, if we had not seen them, we would have been toast. That was also the last time I went about armed only with socks. Complacency + stealthy zombies= potential for disaster. 

[Thesreyn]

Protip: When going around corners or objects, follow a walking line that takes you in a wide arc around the blindspot.

[skullface1818]

Personally, i believe that these weapons will prove to be to cumbersome to make the game THAT much harder for the zombies. for example, most kills occur when a human is ambushed, and these weapons wouldn't work well in ambush situations because of their fairly poor accuracy (the Brezerker because the darts are fired from the BOTTOM of the gun vs the top, and the Raider because of its unbalanced frame), and the amount of space necessary for them to be used properly (both are two handed weapons) makeing it harder to close corners with them.

Also their size make its harder to reach or a secondary side arm after they DO run out of bullets, leavening a person with a VERY slow to reload weapon. this problem is somewhat an non ishes with the Raider (since it accepts standard recon/long shot clips). In addition not this, anyoen with one of these weapons is IMMEDIATALLY a massive visible target. Ultimately they should not tip the scale unfairly in the hands of the zombies simply because such impressive weapons DO have weaknesses. ultimately we will see when the games begin ^_^. I hope that they don't get banned (although i don't think ill be getting them)....i already have like..hummn lets see..4 guns that I take into combat? i cant afford to get to encumbered.

[Thesreyn]

There's another thing I like about them. It removes the necessity of carrying 3-4 blasters into combat and makes stealth a far more viable aspect of the game.

I have two loadouts, both of which include the 35 drum magazine. One loadout is designed for maximum firepower, giving me a potential zombie stun amount of 59 without reloading (Yes that includes socks). The other is 41 without reloading and consists of a maverick and 35 drum magazine.

What the second loadout allows for, is a lot less bulk on my person. With only two blasters, both of which are quite small and have little in the way of accoutrements that can make noise, if I follow noise discipline basics and wear appropriate clothing, I can reduce my noise signature to practically nothing. Until the advent of high capacity, light weapons, stealth was really only applicable in the event that you are trying to avoid as much confrontation as possible. I know, sounds like that's what stealths main goal is, right? Hear me out.

If attempting to get from point a (say the library) to point b (say, your dorm room) stealth is a perfectly viable option, assuming it is used at the appropriate time. However, using stealth in the process of completing missions (such as having an infiltration group that will be doing a lot of fighting) has been difficult due to a lack of firepower that such a group could provide. Consider how useful it would be for the humans to complete a mission if the zombies received no reinforcements because an infiltration group had the firepower to effectively keep the fresh zombies from reaching the mission point.

[gnomeofdoom]

As a counter to that, we had two guys that were damn good sprinters who were our 'scouts' during missions. they armed themselves with nothing more than a single night finder and a ton of ammo. The only reason one was taken out is because he stopped to make sure someone who had fallen was ok and got tagged from behind. It's intimidating to see two humans running full bore at a small group of zombies, even carrying a single shot weapon.