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Author Topic: A treatise on why foam melee weapons should not be permitted en-mass in HvZ  (Read 36898 times)
solmssteinke


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« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2011, 04:36:44 PM »

"Humans don't need melee"? Perhaps not, but it certainly makes the game more fun, besides which people who say Nerf swords hurt without exception have no concept of proper sword-use, like our humans do. We know how to use them without hurting people, and the best part is it makes the humans more deadly with them. So the zombies don't get hurt, and the humans don't sacrifice the full impact of melee.

As agentjohnnyb stated, our games have ended pretty much the same way most games do. It often takes the zombies about as long to slaughter the humans as without melee! Swordwalls are NOT invincible, as we have proven time and time again when the humans were utterly destroyed in the final battles without making it beyond halfway through the survival timer. This tells us that zombies CAN adapt, they CAN take down any player (even the sword ninjas, again proven time and again by the fact that most die before the final battle), and the charge is effective even against swordwalls, and I would argue especially against swordwalls for various reasons.

So please, unless you can prove with testing over multiple games that melee in fact ruins the mechanics, don't bother saying it won't work - because practical experience, as it has for player attitudes (i.e. zeds don't mind melee because it challenges them) has told otherwise.

Every. Single. Time.

That is all.
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Title: Redemptor or "Hawk"
School: SUNY Geneseo

Primary: Nerf longshot modified with replacement springs and removed air restrictor
Secondary: Nerf sword, double-bladed
Dyslexda
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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2011, 01:08:03 AM »

So please, unless you can prove with testing over multiple games that melee in fact ruins the mechanics, don't bother saying it won't work - because practical experience, as it has for player attitudes (i.e. zeds don't mind melee because it challenges them) has told otherwise.

Every. Single. Time.

That is all.

I believe the general position of the opposition is not that melee can't work; your school obviously has proved that incorrect. Rather, it is acknowledging that player bases among schools are incredibly different, and as such, certain gameplay elements may find themselves out of place on different campuses. One of our unique gameplay factors is a significant number of highly skilled sock ninjas on campus that, for everything we have seen, is unduplicated anywhere else. Mizzou only started adopting sock strategies after seeing Truman's players, but doesn't have many (if any significant ones) yet. Our trip to Ball State's Invitational yielded zero notable sock ninjas from other schools with the same skill set as our own. Hell, when I went to Madison's game over the summer, and brought nothing but socks, I was laughed at ("No seriously, where's your blaster?"). This is not trying to be a thesis on "OMG Our players are better than urz!!!" by any means. You most likely have players skilled at gameplay elements Trumaneers are not (we, for example, are notoriously bad at both ambushing and being ambushed); it all evens out in the end. However, we are simply recognizing that a mechanic such as melee would most likely be amplified in a manner not occurring at other schools.

tl;dr: Nobody says melee can't work anywhere. Every game and every campus are different, though, and its effect would be magnified in a different playerbase.
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Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

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solmssteinke


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« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2011, 10:05:42 AM »

Well, we in fact do have a significant percentage of the player base who are the equivalent of your sock ninjas...I dunno, perhaps your zeds don't do as well against them for other reasons, or perhaps ours just have gotten lucky a ton of times in a row. I have no idea. I wasn't directing that at you specifically, and I to some extent agree with the idea of different player bases.

I was just annoyed at people continuing to put a block ban on melee in their minds, that's all  Tongue
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Title: Redemptor or "Hawk"
School: SUNY Geneseo

Primary: Nerf longshot modified with replacement springs and removed air restrictor
Secondary: Nerf sword, double-bladed
Markus

Loves Stampedes a little too much

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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2011, 02:19:11 AM »

One thing to all the melee folks out there: It isn't the final battle where the advantage of swordwalls is visible. It's in the middle battles where humans and zombies are still roughly equal. I'm not saying zombies don't win when there are sword walls, I'm just saying it's longer and more frustrating for them to do it.
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solmssteinke


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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2011, 10:48:14 AM »

Yeah, so they actually have to work to get the kills instead of wiping out at least a quarter of the humans in a single charge with half the numbers.
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Title: Redemptor or "Hawk"
School: SUNY Geneseo

Primary: Nerf longshot modified with replacement springs and removed air restrictor
Secondary: Nerf sword, double-bladed
agentjonnyb
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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2011, 03:46:17 PM »

One thing to all the melee folks out there: It isn't the final battle where the advantage of swordwalls is visible. It's in the middle battles where humans and zombies are still roughly equal. I'm not saying zombies don't win when there are sword walls, I'm just saying it's longer and more frustrating for them to do it.

Yeah, it's longer. But frustrating? No. Instead of a 5 minute, effortless slaughter that's too short for anyone to enjoy, it's an intense, epic battle ranging 12-20+ minutes.
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Markus

Loves Stampedes a little too much

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« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2011, 02:43:48 AM »

Yeah, it's longer. But frustrating? No. Instead of a 5 minute, effortless slaughter that's too short for anyone to enjoy, it's an intense, epic battle ranging 12-20+ minutes.

Maybe at the point where transition from a large number of humans to a small number of humans happens, but before that it's a long, uphill grind for the zombies, and there's no guarantee that that battle will happen. More often than not it's a series of small losses for humans that repeatedly feed the horde, interspersed with repeated failed assaults by the zombies.
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solmssteinke


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« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2011, 10:23:24 AM »

Actually, it's the big battles with a lot of humans which are the most successful in terms of sheer excitement. The level of fun gameplay often rivals the final battles, which naturally makes people a heck of a lot more excited about playing the game. As a matter of fact, I can think of at least five instances, prolly more, where large numbers of humans to zeds resulted in awesome game play AND a solid number of kills, WITH melee.
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Title: Redemptor or "Hawk"
School: SUNY Geneseo

Primary: Nerf longshot modified with replacement springs and removed air restrictor
Secondary: Nerf sword, double-bladed
Dyslexda
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« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2011, 04:04:21 PM »

Large battles are hardly where we're expecting melee to break our game. Rather, it's the individual, day-to-day skirmishes in which it would break our game. But, as I've been saying time and time again, different player bases mean different rulesets are in order.
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Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
catbarf


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« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2011, 05:57:26 PM »

different player bases mean different rulesets are in order.

This, a thousand times. At my school I know humans would die en masse even with melee, because the layout of our campus means there are no small one-on-one skirmishes- it's big mobs of twenty or more. On a smaller campus, that might not apply, and it really changes the game.
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hawkdanop


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« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2011, 11:56:24 PM »

I feel that arguing over the balance of melee weapons isn't reli relevant at my school. Depending on the situation, it could either way. What I fear as an administrator of the game is that one situation that can escalate into a banning of the game. Either someone over reacting to being hit and starting a fight or someone being injured by the weapon itself. Dealing with my schools administration is a delicate process, and the image of students physically beating each other does not come off as positive. We typically have games of 800 people and one bad situation can lead to the end the game. That being said, I view allowing melee as too risky, not to the games itself, but because of the increased chance of an incident happening that can jeopardize the game at my school.
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Spaztikko
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« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2011, 05:50:34 AM »

they can be used by dumbasses. simple - remove the dumbass from the equation. done. melee is now fine.
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agentjonnyb
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« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2011, 01:22:48 PM »

they can be used by dumbasses. simple - remove the dumbass from the equation. done. melee is now fine.

Exactly. There's a few in every game. We find one that hits too hard, we give 'em a very firm (sometimes Jack Bauer style if necessary) warning that one more mess up and they're banned for the rest of the game, and possibly all future games. We haven't had any repeat offenders in at least 3 games now.
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Cazzums
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« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2011, 02:36:27 PM »

Anyone else thinking this question has been answered, beaten, and dragged through and through? Just a thought...
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Spaztikko
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« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2011, 07:31:25 PM »

yes. absolutely. its been done.
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