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Author Topic: Loot....  (Read 4000 times)
Gumbysmash

I call her "Veria"...

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« on: May 19, 2012, 12:58:34 AM »

So I wasn't really sure where to post this, so feel free to move it to it's proper home.

So every once and awhile I'll be sitting at home and mulling over a problem and my wonderful wife, who really hasn't gamed since the super nintendo, will spout off the greatest of ideas. I've been giving a lot of thought on how to add a reward to my (hopefully) soon to be run game for those happy few that really immerse themselves into the game. As I sat in my "thinking chair" My wife looked at me and passed on this golden idea...Loot Bags. When a player stuns a zombie the only reward is a short lived removal of that zombie as a threat. Not a really tangible reward. So with the idea of loot bags I'd be making/purchasing a number of simple bags (see dice bag), made of Hunter Safety Orange cloth, that I would fill with goodies. Each Zombie would be given a loot bag and when they get stunned they would drop their loot bag before running off to the respawn point. Once a loot bag drops, only humans can recover them. For the most part I was going to be loading them with snack size candies and darts. But since I was planning on running a Resident Evil storyline, I was also going to be seeding the loot bags with herbs (red, green, blue) that make up a MedPack, and gun parts that would unlock the use of the heavily modded blasters that are a part of my collection (we don't really allow the use of modded blasters as a norm).

Not to leave my zombie horde hanging, I'll also be setting up a "evolution" table. So that a zombie with so many feed codes can "evolve" into one of the more powerful Resident Evil creatures. Still working out the number of codes = what evolution, but I think it'll be fun.
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Cazzums
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 01:03:36 AM »

I really like this idea Grin For something along the lines of rewards for being more active both as a human, and as a zombie, this solves a major issue with people just not playing!
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Dyslexda
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 03:06:28 AM »

...As a zombie, why in the world would I carry one of these? Humans don't need a reward for stunning a zombie. This isn't a game featuring BAMFy humans vs the faceless zombies (and there's far, far more to being a zombie than just getting feed codes).
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Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
Cazzums
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 05:11:01 AM »


Not to leave my zombie horde hanging, I'll also be setting up a "evolution" table. So that a zombie with so many feed codes can "evolve" into one of the more powerful Resident Evil creatures. Still working out the number of codes = what evolution, but I think it'll be fun.

Is this not a good enough reason, considering Gumbymash is going for a certain theme??
This, in my eyes is not making zombies faceless. This is empowerment for zeds who have the balls to get kills and actually play the game. Both sides get rewards for playing not just the humans. Also, isn't it the zombies side that only get 'upgraded' to a more powerful individual? Humans would be getting heavily modded blasters, but as such what difference would that make compared to someone just bringing said heavily modded weapons?
Gumbymash, do you have an example of your humans rewards/blasters?
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Gumbysmash

I call her "Veria"...

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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 05:38:51 AM »

I've got a Voltage modded Vulcan with a drum that holds a 100rd chain
4 mavricks with all of the upgrades I can do. (spring, AR, cylinder drop, solid clutch)
2 recon with spring, AR, padding
2 barracade with voltage mod
2 raiders spring, AR, padding
2 longshot spring, ar, padding, front gun integration
stampede voltage, spring, ar, padding
Swarmpede with voltage mod
and if i can get them done 2 rayven with voltage mods and motor swaps

Zombie evolutions
Licker 4 foot "tongue" A length of red cloth tube with a sock on the end and a wrist strap.
Hunter Much reduced stun timer
Nemisis Gets to use my titan missile launcher, and is immune to darts (socks/missiles/arrows to kill)
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Chevalier Mal Fet
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PREPARE FOR TROUBLE

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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 02:18:53 PM »

When a player stuns a zombie the only reward is a short lived removal of that zombie as a threat. Not a really tangible reward.

Not to nitpick, but I question this premise.

When a human stuns a zombie, his reward is that he gets to live a bit longer. That should be motivation enough - I don't see how candy will change that.

However, I am intrigued by the concept of loot bags. I'd put something perhaps plot relevant in them, or possibly whatever our game's currency is that semester. Stun a zombie, get a dollar for the game shop (this would naturally cause us to inflate the prices in the shop, since the currency would be much more easily obtained).
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Om nom, kiddos.

Screw those lists of blasters. Being a zombie is just better.
Dyslexda
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 04:51:35 PM »

Is this not a good enough reason, considering Gumbymash is going for a certain theme??

Doesn't answer either of my points. As a zombie, what motivation would I have for carrying this loot bag? It's hard enough for us to convince players to carry feed cards and bandannas on them; why would I, as a zombie, accept this burden that only benefits humans? I would just "forget" it in my dorm.

Second, there's more to being a zombie than kills. I hate systems that reward based on how many kills you have, because there's so much more to being a zombie than the number of tags you've made. Teamwork is almost more important in the zombie horde than human mob, and without support, you likely won't get anywhere. By directly rewarding number of kills you teach zombies to be greedy, rather than work together for the common good.
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Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
Chevalier Mal Fet
* Game Organizer

PREPARE FOR TROUBLE

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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 06:09:34 PM »

Doesn't answer either of my points. As a zombie, what motivation would I have for carrying this loot bag? It's hard enough for us to convince players to carry feed cards and bandannas on them; why would I, as a zombie, accept this burden that only benefits humans? I would just "forget" it in my dorm.

Second, there's more to being a zombie than kills. I hate systems that reward based on how many kills you have, because there's so much more to being a zombie than the number of tags you've made. Teamwork is almost more important in the zombie horde than human mob, and without support, you likely won't get anywhere. By directly rewarding number of kills you teach zombies to be greedy, rather than work together for the common good.

Teamwork isn't "almost" more important for zombies, it's more important. A lone human can survive just fine all by his lonesome, even against 40 zeds if he's quick. A lone zombie won't be able to do much to threaten humans. Tongue Zombies need hordes, and any horde is only going to have a small fraction of its members actually making tags. The rest of us are doing the vital work of soaking up stuns in order to get our brothers within range.
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Om nom, kiddos.

Screw those lists of blasters. Being a zombie is just better.
Gumbysmash

I call her "Veria"...

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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 06:57:17 PM »

@Dyslexda: You questioned first, I'll start with you...

Quote
Humans don't need a reward for stunning a zombie.

You're totally right, humans don't need a reward for stunning zombies. Getting to live that extra 15 min as a human should be reward enough. And since getting to stay human is the goal, why should the humans go outside of the safe zones at all? That makes any HvZ game a sure win for the human side right? The OZ starves after 48hr without a feed. Humans win! Yay! The Idea of the loot bags are to add a little bit of an extra reward for those brave souls that go out and hunt zombies until 3 in the morning... because it's fun.

Quote
...As a zombie, why in the world would I carry one of these?

Because as the guy running the game I asked you really nicely? If you need a better reason to not
Quote
just "forget" it in my dorm.
read your own rule #3. If the GM has made it a part of the game, and you decide to play, not following through is just you being a dick.

Quote
there's more to being a zombie than kills

Really? What? The horde doesn't grow based on the number of cookies I baked this afternoon. It runs off of the kills made by the horde. And no
Quote
Teamwork is almost more important in the zombie horde than human mob
, it's WAY more important. Early game a lot more than late. But in the spirit of teamwork you want to combine your feed codes with those 2 over there to get John Hancock to an evolution, then is it any different from giving a feed code to another zed player so they don't starve?

And so if you don't like the rules that I put into my game, feel free to not play. Seems simple enough to me. If your not going to be having fun with the rest of us, I'd rather you be doing something you do enjoy, and leave the rest of us to enjoy our game in peace.

...moving right along
@Chevalier Mal Fet

Quote
When a human stuns a zombie, his reward is that he gets to live a bit longer.

As I said, I was looking for a more tangible (something you can touch) reward. I'm not looking to replace the stun with loot, but if it bothers you so much, leave the bag there. I'm sure the next human to stumble by will enjoy the tasty candy coated goodness you turned your nose up at.

Quote
A lone zombie won't be able to do much to threaten humans

I've seen a single zombie stalk and kill 5 humans, solo. It's all in the planning of your attack. No a single zombie cannot rush a squad of humans. Ambushes work pretty well.

And now... it's nap time. If I didn't address your concern in a manner that you find filling, please feel free to bring up a specific point and I'll respond when I get to work. I'll have plenty of time to do anything when I get there.
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Dandelo
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2012, 08:43:41 PM »

Quote
You're totally right, humans don't need a reward for stunning zombies. Getting to live that extra 15 min as a human should be reward enough. And since getting to stay human is the goal, why should the humans go outside of the safe zones at all? That makes any HvZ game a sure win for the human side right? The OZ starves after 48hr without a feed. Humans win! Yay! The Idea of the loot bags are to add a little bit of an extra reward for those brave souls that go out and hunt zombies until 3 in the morning... because it's fun.

Slippery slope argument, can't take it seriously, not a real justification, etc.

Quote
Because as the guy running the game I asked you really nicely?

Moderators don't 'rule' the game. They run the game, because players allow them to. If a moderator starts creating pisspoor, unbalanced content, people are not going to play, or they're simply going to circumvent that content.

Quote
Really? What? The horde doesn't grow based on the number of cookies I baked this afternoon. It runs off of the kills made by the horde.

This is a very binary way of looking at the zombies and it will not do your game any favors.
Quote
And no , it's WAY more important. Early game a lot more than late. But in the spirit of teamwork you want to combine your feed codes with those 2 over there to get John Hancock to an evolution, then is it any different from giving a feed code to another zed player so they don't starve?

You're still assuming 'good zombie = guaranteed kills.' Some of the best zombies I've seen never get kills--they're the ones who take the darts for the other guys, or the ones who are ALWAYS hunting, ALWAYS charge without hesitation, etc. Again, kills equaling a zombie's success or failure, at least in your eyes, is flawed.
Quote
And so if you don't like the rules that I put into my game, feel free to not play. Seems simple enough to me. If your not going to be having fun with the rest of us, I'd rather you be doing something you do enjoy, and leave the rest of us to enjoy our game in peace.

Again, I'm hearing "MY IDEA IS GREAT AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT YOU CAN JUST NOT PLAY *POUT*." Maybe your idea isn't very good in its current iteration. Believe me when I say, the 'Moderator' title is not an immunity from making bad decisions.


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Cazzums
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

Second, there's more to being a zombie than kills. I hate systems that reward based on how many kills you have, because there's so much more to being a zombie than the number of tags you've made. Teamwork is almost more important in the zombie horde than human mob, and without support, you likely won't get anywhere. By directly rewarding number of kills you teach zombies to be greedy, rather than work together for the common good.
So what you're saying is when you're fast enough and quick enough to kill humans, it means you should do it for the zombies who are doing the bare minimum? Call me greedy but when I try to kill, I try to kill.
Group effort is required, theres no dispute about that. I am by no means stacking up kills, as much as I love scaring humans and giving my friends the brains. Last game I didn't get a single kill even though I did stuff like hiding behind dumpsters and crawling in the dirt on all 4's! I even being slow on purpose to coerce the humans towards an ambush. But what happens when not everyone plays on the same level? Does that make the veteran zombies automatically greedy? No, it makes those who either can't keep up or not trying at all greedy. Thats worse in my mind... Roll Eyes
All and all its a matter of opinion. Both yours and Gumbies games are completely different from what I can see. He's going for a theme, and yours is more traditional...
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vidboi


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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 04:47:57 AM »

So what you're saying is when you're fast enough and quick enough to kill humans, it means you should do it for the zombies who are doing the bare minimum? Call me greedy but when I try to kill, I try to kill.
Group effort is required, theres no dispute about that. I am by no means stacking up kills, as much as I love scaring humans and giving my friends the brains. Last game I didn't get a single kill even though I did stuff like hiding behind dumpsters and crawling in the dirt on all 4's! I even being slow on purpose to coerce the humans towards an ambush. But what happens when not everyone plays on the same level? Does that make the veteran zombies automatically greedy? No, it makes those who either can't keep up or not trying at all greedy. Thats worse in my mind... Roll Eyes
All and all its a matter of opinion. Both yours and Gumbies games are completely different from what I can see. He's going for a theme, and yours is more traditional...

How often does the person who leads the charge not get stunned? They always do. If you're making zombies want to take personal kills then very few people are willing to consistently sacrifice themselves for the good of the whole horde, as instead of being heralded as a great zombie who's caused the death of many humans by organising the charges (a very important and quite difficult job) the official rankings say that they are terrible because they have no kills.
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Cazzums
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 06:35:40 AM »

How often does the person who leads the charge not get stunned? They always do.
I beg to differ. I'm sure some players here who happen to know what parkour/athlete zombies do as well.
If you're making zombies want to take personal kills then very few people are willing to consistently sacrifice themselves for the good of the whole horde, as instead of being heralded as a great zombie who's caused the death of many humans by organizing the charges (a very important and quite difficult job) the official rankings say that they are terrible because they have no kills.
Not at all. I try to kill and yet I know the group ethics enough to know the time and place. As I stated, every campus is different. Maybe all the zombies on my campus are heathens and gluttons while taking advantage of my oh-so-precious life(of the next minute!) and every other campus does it right by negating the humans of any sort of reward besides the simple stun timer. Maybe its vice-versa?
On the campuses that I've played on, each game had a close knit community. A group with an abundance of the most important tool for any HVZ game, being trust. I hope with this, in the end, Gumby's campus does the right thing and ENJOYS the event for what its truly meant for. Fun.
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Gumbysmash

I call her "Veria"...

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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 06:57:56 AM »

Quote
"MY IDEA IS GREAT AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT YOU CAN JUST NOT PLAY *POUT*."

I am really behind this statement. It, for the most part, really works for me. The only thing that is a little out of place is... I don't pout. Unless your my wife, and then, only when I get told to put away my game stuff. I think my idea is great, and so far the only things I've heard on the topic has been a I like the idea, a I like the idea...with reservations, and a lot of I don't like it. What I haven't heard is a reason why its bad outside of zombies won't play together anymore and I don't wanna. Both of the latter don't really sit true to me. Having discussed the these ideas with a lot of the IRL people I play with, I've gotten a lot of feedback that has made me think that the Zed population will end up working in squads to get evolutions for each of them. That, to me, sounds like team work in the making. But if you think the idea is flawed, how would you fix it. And "I just wouldn't use it!" isn't a fix. And If your playing in a game I'm running, I tell you that something is a part of the rules for my game, and you don't follow the rules you don't like, then no, I don't want you to play. To pick and choose the rules your going to follow is cheating. And I will crush a cheater from my game, no remorse. Cheaters kill a game fast. When I run a game I am either the jovial fat guy watching the fun ensue, or I am the all consuming hate monster that holds the power of "delete character". Play the game, have fun, and if you question a ruling bring it to my attention. I will make a decision quickly so as to not keep you waiting, but once I have made my decision I'm done with the problem. If you still feel as though your being wronged, find me later, after the mission/game and I will debate the pros and cons and try and find a solution that we can both feel satisfied about. If we cannot come to a point of satisfaction, then you need to decide if the outcome of my ruling is such that you can no longer enjoy playing (and you should leave) or it's not really that important and you can live with the ruling (and you should strive to have as much fun as possible). Just remember, if you stay, and you start to spread negativity about me, my mod staff, my game, or the people playing my game, I will have to ask you to leave, you are not so important to the game. Your not having fun anymore and at that point are ruining fun for others.
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ilikefish58


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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 12:09:12 PM »

I will start by saying that everyone needs to keep in mind that EVERY GAME IS DIFFERENT. Different games evolve under different circumstances and have very different player cultures.

That said, I can relate to both Gumbysmash's and the Truman guys' positions. There have been some small games recently at Texas A&M, notably the latest one, where there is little to NO daytime play outside of missions happening. Its probably a function of having a smaller game on one of the largest campuses, but there were a lot of people who just wouldn't go out. Having some sort of candy bag for loot probably would make more people come out and play. At least I would. (In a previous game, a player-moderator decided to have a final stand where instead of socks, she would throw candy. Zombies agreed to the terms of the candy-socks and a bunch actually came out just because of the candy part.)

That said, there were a lot of points where there were far fewer ZOMBIES out than humans. Having a loot bag that gives an incentive for humans wouldn't help in this case, as there were humans out and about, but no zombies. Another argument can be made that humans shouldn't need incentives to go out and kill zombies, as otherwise, they aren't really playing and not having fun. Having fun should be incentive enough.

So on to the actual mechanics of the loot bag idea:

First question I have is once a zombie gets stunned and drops their bag, do they get another? You mentioned a respawn point - does that mean that multiple bags will be at the respawn point for zombies to get another one after they drop the first one? How big is your game? If its a small game, then maybe that will work, but if not... you're looking at a lot of loot bags.

Second thing is more of a suggestion, but why not give humans loot bags as well? They could have their feed code and maybe multiple snack sized candy bars in them. That way, if multiple zombies attack a human, all of them could get some kind of reward instead of just one getting the feed code. Tasty, tasty rewards. Just a thought.
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