January 22, 2018, 11:49:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you're a game moderator and don't have the "Game Organizer" custom title, please PM
Sklover.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Retaliator Priming Issues  (Read 18295 times)
Dyslexda
* Game Organizer


Offline Offline

« on: August 22, 2012, 12:29:39 AM »

So, I finally succumbed to the allure of the Elite line tonight, and picked up a Retaliator. AR removal went without a hitch, put it back together, and...suddenly, it won't prime correctly. It's as if the plunger guide rod isn't lining up correctly and is catching on the catch. When priming, I hit a hard resistance after less than an inch; if I force it, it eventually slides without resistance, and if I let it return to the front (without a full prime), the next prime occurs without difficulty. However, after shooting it, the problem returns. Also, when I hit the hard resistance, if I jimmy the guide rod with a screwdriver from the rear, it'll release whatever it's caught on. As far as I can tell I have all the internals lined up correctly. I've never encountered something like this before (either it primes or it doesn't; haven't seen a blaster do it under protest, and then do it smoothly). Anyone have an idea?
Logged

Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
Cazzums
* Forum Moderator

Graveyard Shift

Offline Offline

« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 01:06:20 AM »

There seems to be more and more reports of this happening across the NIC. Did you remove any of the locks?
Logged

"See you space cowboy..."
Primary: Minimized Demolisher
Backup: Socks/3' Blowgun
SgNerf


Offline Offline

« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 02:45:04 AM »

To understand why this phenomenon occurs, you can refer to my explanation of how the retaliator system works at the NH forum:

http://nerfhaven.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22923&view=findpost&p=319677

The main issue is the plunger tube is designed to move and control the bolt locking, its not in a fixed position. If the plunger tube itself is not in its most forward position after a firing cycle (the plunger tube happened to stop short or bounce back abit), the bolt lock will not be released.

Most modders just remove the bolt locks, that solves the issue. Smiley
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:50:33 AM by SgNerf » Logged

Nerf News & Reviews! >> http://www.sgnerf.blogspot.com
Nerf Mod Guides! >> http://www.modworks.blogspot.com
torukmakto4

Interstellar Caveman

Offline Offline

« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 08:09:19 AM »

Mine has never behaved in such a manner.

I am not an advocate of deleting the bolt lockup entirely, on anything. That hardware is there for a reason; it's not a "safety" or "foolproofing" measure. I would not trust a retaliator with no bolt locking, as there is a strong chance the bolt could get dislodged from the closed position before firing, or could bounce on firing and result in a malfunction. Unlike the LS which had massive displacement and a close-fitting counterpiston to drive the bolt back home on firing, or the old CS guns in which the bolt WAS the plunger head, any small movement of the CS-DP bolt out of battery causes sealing to the PT to be lost which would potentially result in serious issues.

I would just figure out what is going on and correct it. If the system is set up correctly it should lock and unlock with as much reliability as it feeds and fires. I'm guessing PT is not travelling freely or there is a burr on the rod that is scrubbing on something on the way back through the catch.

The thunderbolt gun still has all the stock bolt locking parts in it and it has never once failed to unlock.

Something I discovered is that the magazine interlock plate plays a role in the bolt locking/mid-stroke catch operation. I didn't delete mine; I just cut away the surface that engaged the mag release and reinstalled it.
Logged

"Are banshees legal in HvZ?"
Quartermaster, Florida 501st
All AC drives all the time from here on. Brushes suck.
My nerf blog
Dyslexda
* Game Organizer


Offline Offline

« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 03:12:07 PM »

Aha! Finally found the issue. The locks weren't it; it would resist regardless of if I had the bolt lock in. For some reason, inside the plunger tube, there's a small lip of plastic with an ever so slightly reduced ID that extends maybe a centimeter into the plunger tube. Normally, the lip appears to be enough for the O Ring to catch on, and have the plunger stop. My issue comes in that after being shot (or with any spring pressure), the O Ring will force itself into that reduced diameter area, resisting any push to get it to move out. I can only assume it doesn't do this on stock blasters as the AR provides enough cushion to stop the plunger head. No idea how we're going to fix this now, but at least we know the problem...

EDIT - Went back to look at the guides again, and SGNerf describes the area in his "Special Notes" section. I was considering just lubing it to hell and back to let it do its thing, but as far as I can tell, the O Ring isn't supposed to go past that lip. Why mine is, still don't know.

EDIT 2 - Apparently the buffer created by having a loaded dart (and not simply dry firing) is actually enough to stop it from jamming onto the lip. Interesting.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 03:30:59 PM by Dyslexda » Logged

Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
SgNerf


Offline Offline

« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 12:54:38 PM »

Thats an interesting discovery you've found... i just checked my Retaliator plunger tubes and plunger heads again, and they all stop at the narrowed area (cannot slip past that section).

I guess it's probably due to manufacturing variations in the plunger parts. Most likely the plunger head in your unit was somehow molded with a slightly narrower front diameter, so it could slip past the narrowed plunger tube section if it moves forward with enough force.

Your info is really helpful. If anyone else experiences the same issue, it would be one of the parts they can check during the troubleshooting process too. Smiley
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 02:31:35 PM by SgNerf » Logged

Nerf News & Reviews! >> http://www.sgnerf.blogspot.com
Nerf Mod Guides! >> http://www.modworks.blogspot.com
torukmakto4

Interstellar Caveman

Offline Offline

« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 01:33:55 PM »

Mine will stick this way if dryfired (I thought all of them did), but I don't dryfire springers intentionally and all that is needed to correct after a dryfire is a slightly harder pull. Just be aware of the bind if you miss a mag change and dryfire once, and it shouldn't cause problems.

On another note, I can't see it being healthy for the plunger or tube (fatigue failure waiting to happen) and I would definitely install a spacer in the PT and a contact bolster on the plunger head if I were to use any spring other than the stock one I currently have.
Logged

"Are banshees legal in HvZ?"
Quartermaster, Florida 501st
All AC drives all the time from here on. Brushes suck.
My nerf blog
Dyslexda
* Game Organizer


Offline Offline

« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 02:38:32 PM »

Normally I only dry fire springers while assembling/disassembling them as a basic function check. Didn't even think to try firing with a dart at first, just figured it was an overall problem

SgNerf: Actually, it isn't the plungerhead, but the ORing that gets caught. I can only assume my ORing is just a smidge smaller than yours. Hooray manufacturing differences!
Logged

Hunting Grounds: Truman State University, Kirksville, MO

The Five Commandments:
1.) Don't Be Stupid
2.) Don't Get It Banned
3.) Don't Be A Dick
4.) Have Fun
5.) Play Like You've Got A Pair
SgNerf


Offline Offline

« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 03:42:21 PM »

I've tested my modded AR removed Retaliators again, but this time i dry-fired them... and yes, i could replicate the issue you encountered too! The plunger head and o-ring would tend to get stuck in the narrow section of the plunger tube and the next priming action would then require abit more effort to dislodge it. Though the effort required seems to vary slightly between the units i tested, some not much effort required, some abit more, so i guess there is still some parts variation that could affect it too.

Btw, i didn't figure to dry-fire them earlier during the tests too... 'cos i never had to dry fire any of my modded blasters at all. Grin

The bolt and trigger locks in all my modded blasters are always removed by default, so it was a standard procedure for me to un-prime my blasters smoothly by easing the plunger rod forward under load with the priming grip, so i never had to dry-fire them (i've found this practice very important especially when using heavier spring loads). Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 03:50:33 PM by SgNerf » Logged

Nerf News & Reviews! >> http://www.sgnerf.blogspot.com
Nerf Mod Guides! >> http://www.modworks.blogspot.com
teek42

BLITZ squad organizer

Offline Offline

« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 05:41:13 PM »

So from the sound of it, when dry fired no plastic is smashing into plastic, so these shoud be safe(ER) to dryfire? Because the o-ring is absorbing all of the leftover energy. Obviously it should probably be avoided, but the conseques of doing it occasionally should be less stressfull to the internals than a reverse plunger derivative right? I havnt noticed this symptom yet, but I'll play around with it when I get the chance. I wonder if that was actually the purpose of tightening up the p-tube.
Logged

Primary: SMG rapidstrike, MG rapidstrike, carnivore stampede, or Ertl pump action shotgun.
Secondary: Top rail blowgun (if applicable), sometimes a tetrastrike.
NnStar molle vest with paintball pod holsters and assorted pouches. Blue camo btu's.
SgNerf


Offline Offline

« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2012, 05:29:03 AM »

Yeah, the main contact point between the plunger head and plunger tube at the front section is the o-ring, so when dry-fired there isn't the loud plastic-to-plastic cracking sound like in the older reverse plunger blasters, instead you just hear a muffled impact sound.

I guess the wear and tear component in these new direct plunger Elite blasters would be the o-rings. Smiley
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 06:19:02 AM by SgNerf » Logged

Nerf News & Reviews! >> http://www.sgnerf.blogspot.com
Nerf Mod Guides! >> http://www.modworks.blogspot.com
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  



All opinions expressed on this web forum are those of the individual authors and not of Gnarwhal Studios INC.

"Humans vs. Zombies" and "HvZ" ® 2005-2012 Gnarwhal Studios INC.
HVZ SOURCE is a project created by Chris Weed (Dreamer of Dreams), Brad Sappington, Joe Sklover, Justin Quick,
Trevor Moorman, Max Temkin, and Ben Beecher.



Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines